It got to the point of me experiencing all these to be honest pretty awful situations and then talking to a lot of friends that I’ve experienced really similar things, but then also looking in the market and trying to seek help for this, and I couldn’t find it. And so for me, I was like, this just needs to be a product in the market. Everything I’ve done, everything I’ve studied has been to impact people in a positive way. And so for me, it was just like more than, oh, I wanna do a startup. It was, I need to do this.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Roots to Routes. This is the show where I speak to people where at one point in their career or life, they’ve taken the decision to take a risk down a more unconventional path driven by a purpose that they really believe in. And my job is to uncover not just the stories and the key moments in their own life, but those from the family journey that came before them so that you can better understand the influence that this can have on your culture, values and the purpose that you now stand for today. Today’s guest is one of the most passionate and determined people that I have ever come across and you’ll soon find out why what she stands for now is such an important thing for the world and represents exactly what this show is about.

So I’d love to welcome Kaurah. What is the earliest context that you think you can provide? So that’s one that can stem back through your family roots that could start to explain the story of ultimately what’s got you to where you are today?

I think a big factor I would say is my parents are from Malaysia, and then we have Indian heritage, but they moved to Australia. And so my myself and my brother were born in Melbourne, Australia. And I think that, you know, getting born and like embraced in the Western world was definitely a factor when we didn’t look, I guess, white Australian. And so cultural identity issues was definitely a big play, I think, growing up.

So I think also with Malaysia being quite a multicultural country, there’s a big influence of, you know, there’s 3 main kind of cultures and backgrounds. So you’ve got kind of the Muslim Malays and then you’ve got, Indians, who can be of different religions. So I was raised Christian. And then there’s also Chinese influence a lot as well. So then there’s also Buddhist and different religions at play there.

So yeah. I think that kind of melting pot of the fact that, yeah, Malaysia wasn’t just kind of one culture either, but then you kind of move and grow up in Australia where was less so at the time. You know, now Melbourne is incredibly multicultural, and it’s so amazing. And I, to be honest, wouldn’t live anywhere else in Australia. But, at the time of growing up, it wasn’t the case.

Yeah. So looking at what you know of your parents, the way that they recall life in in their early years from what you do know. So, I mean, my knowledge of history in, Malaysia is not that deep but, you know, from what I understand it was mainly Hindu and Buddhist driven but then there was the sort of Islamic influence that came in once there was an interest in the resources and I think tin and rubber and things like that in Malaysia where then you got that, like you say, that influx of people, like traders from India that had their Arabic influence but then also the Chinese. So like you say, there’s this melting pot and something that I can relate to there is my family grew up as Indians but in East Africa. So they were part of a melting pot but where community became really strong because they stuck together with other South Asians who were in Africa.

Do you notice where because it was such a melting pot of Malaysia how that may have influenced the way your family perceived their place in society or, you know, either the way they were treated or the way that they blended in with others? I think for my parents, you know, they knew that they wanted to move away from it. So they knew that they wanted to be in Australia. And to be honest, like looking back now, it did give my brother and I so many opportunities that

just my family back in Malaysia just doesn’t have. Yeah.

So I think for that, I’m incredibly grateful for the fact that I was born and raised in Australia. But so I think that they obviously, yeah, definitely had more of a community. Right? We didn’t have any family in Australia, really. So they kind of came over basically by themselves.

So that was obviously a very big shift for them. My dad moved back to Malaysia 20 years ago. So he has been back there for a long time and obviously missed that kind of environment and community. And, but when you look at kind of my cousins now, so basically, Malaysia is a predominantly Muslim country today, which means that a lot of the Malays, Muslim Malays actually get, they basically don’t have to get as good grades to get into university, and jobs and things like that. Whereas my cousins that have Indian heritage, or mixed heritage, they, have to get insanely higher grades to get into university spots.

They have to work way harder or prove themselves to get to a certain pay degree and, like, level at jobs. So it is actually quite skewed at the moment in Malaysia. And again, obviously, you need to, like, pay for everything out of pocket and everything. Whereas in Australia, I was able to take a loan for university. Yeah.

So yeah. It there’s definitely a lot of, impact in that. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that is quite well established especially when, you know, if you’ve heard of the book called A Triple Package. So it talks about how there’s certain influences that probably give people from an immigrant background or immigrant parent background, an unfair advantage but it’s down to the situation that they didn’t choose to put themselves into but ended up into.

And so one of them is this idea of having to deal with resilience because it was something that they were exposed to at early age. So, you know, in in this example, it can be seen and it is a disadvantage from an objective point of view of the fact that they probably would have to work harder for the same rights that the, you know, the other people get as favoritism. But do you see how being exposed to that where they were kind of forced into a position of having to work and strive rather than being given things has ultimately benefited them in the long term. Yeah. And I think, you know, from my own example, even though I grew up in Australia, I mean, when I was at university, I moved out of home.

I started university at 17. I worked 3 jobs at once while doing full time university. I’ve faced an incredible amount of adversity in my life. And I think also kind of just seeing from maybe my parents’ experience or kind of, to some degree, kind of going, you know, they divorced when I was quite early. My dad moved back to Malaysia.

I think I didn’t really see a good kind of yeah. That that I didn’t have that to look up to in terms of, like, a good relationship in terms of that. I really wanted to be very independent, have my own money, make like, you know, have my own career and not kind of rely on a guy for that. And so I think for me, yeah, I worked my ass off. And like and I think for me, that has definitely made me who I am today and has helped me and positively benefit me in a lot of ways.

I will say that that doesn’t come with a lot of consequences. Didn’t process a lot of these feelings and issues because I didn’t have the time, like, I didn’t process a lot of these feelings and issues because I didn’t have the time to. Right? Mhmm. You know, I was a football coach for a while.

I was, you know, doing so many different things, and I would have, like, different outfits in my car to be able to change into and then, like, change for an exam at university. Like, so I think for me, I didn’t have time to process a lot of things. I think then I would just go out on a weekend and drink, like, heavily with friends and stuff, and I just didn’t process it. So I think that type of stress and trauma does kind of, yeah, fester for a while, I would say. So I think it took me until about my

mid twenties to, like, really try and deal with all of this.

So, yes, it’s made me incredibly resilient. But at the same time, I do think it’s quite detrimental to your mental health a lot of the time. Yes. I mean, you’re touching on one of the key things of why I’m so excited to dive into Tala Thrive and everything that you’re doing. But essentially, you know, something that you’re touching on, it’s something I can relate to is this idea of how cultural context plays into almost our comfort levels along with a number of other factors and that, you know, we’ll definitely get into that of why we grew up not identifying these things as something that needs to be addressed.

Because in a lot of cases we didn’t have that reference point of knowing that these things are something that can be talked about, right? It’s definitely not something that you can just say that okay it’s experienced in this culture like Asian culture and not in the West but, you know, you can definitely group it. How I see is kind of three things. You as a person, but your family dynamic and then also the culture. I think those three things all play into people’s mental health awareness and how they also, you know, stigmatize it.

And I think that’s a huge point. Firstly, touching on your particular situation, what do you think that balance was between you personally as an individual dealing with it versus the culture that you were raised with versus your own family dynamic as to why you didn’t address it when you should have? Mental health was just never talked about at home, and not just not talked about. I would say, like, we were literally told off if we cried. Mhmm.

Like, it was literally, like, don’t cry. Toughen up. Like, you’re fine. And so I learned for so long to never cry. Like, literally, like, the worst things that would happen, I just wouldn’t cry because I’d be like, okay.

But it’s fine. I’m not allowed to do that. Like, I need to show I’m tough. So it actually took me, like, learning a lot to learn because it’s actually good for you to cry and release that kind of tension and trauma. So I personally had to learn a lot of that and learn how to express my emotions.

For a long time, I would just like go to boxing or something and just get my anger out or get stress out. And so I think for me personally, growing up in a household where, one, you just could never talk about it. We didn’t have extended family or that kind of community around us. So my parents were never involved in a community. Yeah.

So, yeah. I mean, obviously, other people do have that. And to some degree, it could be good or bad, but I never had that. But I had a lot of very good friends that, to this day, I consider family, and especially their family. And so for that reason, then I kind of started being like, oh, this is this is normal to be able to like talk about this.

And so yeah. I think that kind of for me creating kind of my found family or chosen family was really important in terms of learning. Like, this is normal and, like, seeing it from other people and seeing it from their family dynamics. And you’re like, oh my god. They’re crying in front of parents.

They’re talking about this. Like, this happens? Like, this is normal? So that for me was that that learning experience. And I think, yeah, it took me longer than I would have liked to.

But again, if you don’t experience it and don’t grow up with it Yeah. How are you supposed to know? Before we get into university and then, you know, ultimately what came after that and got you to the point of Tala Thrive, I know that you’ve been quite open about some of the cultural identity issues Yeah. That you’ve also faced growing up. And I think they play a big factor in kind of unfolding and almost explaining the core of what Teleflex stands for and what you’re trying to

achieve through it.

What were some of these? I think for me, it was that personally with my kind of situation and family again, we didn’t have family, in Melbourne. And because we didn’t have that community aspect, I think a lot of, my family kind of wanted to, like, separate from those communities and hence probably why they came to Australia. And so for me, I didn’t feel as part of any of those communities. I wasn’t really accepted by the Indian heritage people because my parents were from Malaysia, and we do have some mixed heritage.

And then there wasn’t enough Malaysians in Australia at the time. So I never really identified with any of those. But then also I would always get the question of where are you from? And I’d be like, well, I’m Aussie. And then I’d get the question of where are you really from?

Yes. And it’s like, I think so many of us can resonate with that question. Everyone answers it differently. I think for me, actually, is that I also personally, we grew up in Shanghai for 4 years in my childhood. And so coming back to Melbourne, I was then homeschooled.

I was, like, 8. And which meant, like, even when I tried to socialize with kids around my age, I didn’t know anything of Australian culture because I knew, like, Sailor Moon and, like, Chinese culture. Right? And then again, I would get questioned on, but how do you not know any Indian language? How do you not know what Diwali is?

Like, we never celebrated any of that. We never ate any of that food. So it was a bit of a struggle, I think, resonating with that. And then we would visit family every year in Malaysia. And every year I would go back.

Even, like, Malaysians would be like, well, you’re not Malaysian. You’re Australian. Like, okay, well, where do I fit in? Yeah. You know, for people who are listening into this and can really relate to that because especially as the world becomes more global, more mixed, these are challenges that either are gonna come to the surface more or more and more people are gonna face.

Is there anything that you now would say to a 15 year old version of yourself or where someone is at that age version of yourself and thinks that wow, you know she really is the older version of what I’m going through now. What is that one thing you say to them? Yeah. I mean, I’ve done a lot of, like, inner child healing because I think that that’s so important for so many of us that have these traumas, or don’t express their emotions and are taught not to express at an early age. For me, I think it’s that I don’t think that Safety generally wants to fit you into this box.

Right? I spent 6 years in the Nordics, and it’s very much around what box do you fit into. For me, I think it’s like you are so unique. You’re your own person. You don’t you find your chosen family.

And for me, that was so important to kind of learn. And, you know, my partner, he’s Danish. And so now we’re like, okay, we’re gonna pick the best of each culture. We’re gonna pick the best of the Danish culture. We’re gonna pick the best of the Australian, the best of the Malaysian, and leave the stuff that we don’t want.

We get the ability to choose. And I love that about being from different places and living in different places. So I think, yeah, if I can say that to anyone now, is that embrace what you like about it and don’t take what you don’t like about it. You can make that choice. I love that.

And, you know, this is something that I think I spoke about on an episode recently. So, you know, people listening in may have heard it before but there’s a book called Mai Guo. There’s a mother who’s speaking about her child who is growing up in a place that’s not China. And she gives this phrase which says that purple is made up of blue but is also superior to blue. And what it’s trying

to say is that, you know, her daughter is ultimately this purple because she’s taking in a different color along with the blue.

And what it’s trying to represent is that it has the potential to be superior but at the same time, she says it in a way of fear because it can also take in the negatives as well. Yeah. And you know, I think what you’ve stated there is really important that what you’ve learned to do is understand that it is okay to become this mixture cause there are good elements that you can take from each. As long as you also know that there are elements that aren’t so good for you, right? Like we’ve just spoken about where mental health is probably not recognized.

You identify that as a thing that well that’s probably something that in the culture and values that I was raised with is something that I don’t want to be like for the future generation of your own or for, you know, other people who look up to you. So now I love that. I love that as a message. I think it’s never too late to cut that generational trauma. Yeah.

And I think we all need to learn. Doesn’t matter what cultural background you come from. Obviously, some, especially with countries with colonisation and things like that, we have more generational trauma. But I think that to whatever extent we have it, we need to start learning to heal and cut that generational trauma for the next generation. And so what came after university?

I worked in nutrition for a bit, actually. And so I did another degree in nutrition. So I actually didn’t I ended up, you know, working in BC and start up mentoring, but I actually never did a business degree. And I learned a lot on the way. So my dad was always an entrepreneur, so he came from basically nothing.

He actually took us back to kind of his shed thing that he grew up in, doing milk deliveries at 12 years old. Yeah. But got a scholarship to go to university at the best university in Malaysia. Ended up kind of, yeah, working at really big companies and then starting his own companies, buying a lot of property, but then also, like, lecturing at universities in Malaysia and things like that. But then when he moved to Malaysia to Melbourne.

Sorry. Yeah. He was obviously, doing alright and having different companies. And then, yeah, one of them didn’t go so well. Then we moved to Shanghai.

He started another company there, came back to Melbourne, started another company there. So I grew up or my brother and I both grew up with seeing my dad always have businesses. Like, I never saw either of my parents have a normal job or, like, work for someone else. It was always growing up with, you know, on weekends, my dad would be like, oh, I’m gonna start this thing. Let’s go and sell this at a market or whatever and make us do it as well.

So even at, like, a young age, we’re putting together, like, you know, the laptops and, like, computers, like, really old school computers with, like, the physical RAM sticks and stuff like that. My dad’s an electrician, so I grew up seeing a lot of stuff. Sorry. And so we’d have to, like, sell that at markets and stuff from, like, such a young age. I hated it at the time.

Right? Like, absolutely hated it. But, because I was actually weirdly very introverted. I’m definitely not now, so you can change that apparently. But growing up in Shanghai, I probably did that as well.

And so I, yeah, hated at the time. But growing up, I guess, I don’t know. My brother and I always pitched startup ideas to each other. It was always a thing because we just saw that all the time. So I quickly moved into kind of the startup ecosystem.

So I was running a startup co working space in Melbourne, and then really decided to I really wanted to move to Copenhagen, actually, but the visa in Denmark wasn’t great. And so then, yeah, I decided to move to Sweden instead. I did my exchange in Hong Kong. I met a lot of Nordic people there. And so I just thought, well, I’ve never done Europe.

I really wanna do Europe. And so, yeah, hence moved over to Sweden. And what was your experiences like there? Was life as you expected it? Was it very different?

You know, I’m sure there were some, like, key learnings that you Yeah. That was yeah. It’s a it’s a very big reason as to why I’m I started Tala Thrive. So it was a great experience for a lot of reasons, but there was also a lot of trauma there. So Sweden, to my experience and Stockholm specifically where I lived, it it’s not like Copenhagen.

I thought it was. I’d never been to Stockholm, before I moved. So I I’d been 1 week, to try and find a job basically, before I actually moved over. And you, you know, you can’t tell much from a week. Right?

Mhmm. I was like, oh, it’s probably kind of similar to Copenhagen. I think Copenhagen I think Copenhagen people are very more chill, to be honest. They joke a lot more. They’re more direct, which is a bit more closer to Aussie culture.

But, yeah, so when I moved over to Stockholm, I was running a incubator there. And it look. It was a great experience, work experience. Like, that was awesome. I got to know so many investors.

I ended up kind of, you know, asking them, when I put you in touch with a start up, can I sit in the room with you? Can I learn from you? And that was honestly the best learning you can get because who gets the opportunity to sit in a room with 8 different investors and learn how they think and what questions they ask and whatnot? So it was incredible experience there. And then I end up going into a BC.

But Sweden for me was the place I experienced the most racism. And it was very direct. Like, I’d had a lot of kind of indirect stuff in Melbourne. People kind of treating you differently, you know, asking where you’re from, kind of those type of things. And here and there, you feel discrimination for sure.

Right? Almost more out of ignorance rather than malice or Yeah. I mean, look, I don’t I think every country has it to some level anyway. Right? Like my brother’s experienced stuff in Melbourne.

Some of my friends have experienced pretty intense stuff in Melbourne. Right? Or Australia in general. I think Melbourne’s probably one of the best places in Australia for not experiencing this, but it does happen. I’m definitely not saying that.

It’s just for me personally, Sweden was just really intense. It was, you know, I went in to check my asthma somewhere, which meant I didn’t really look sick. And a nurse was like, well, you’re the dirty one here. Look at you. I was like, okay.

And I remember kind of being like, sorry. What? To your face. To my face. Right?

And I thought she’d said something in Swedish that I didn’t understand. So I just kind of was like, yeah. Sorry. What? And she repeated it word for word.

It’s like, okay. We’re not going back on that. That’s what we’re sticking with, apparently. And at that point, again, like, I kind of moved away from that situation, and I didn’t I didn’t cry. I didn’t break down.

But it did stay with me quite heavily. Right? It was just it was a point where I’m like, oh my god. Like, this this happens. And Yeah.

And I think I felt really privileged to some degree at that moment because I was like, well, other people must experience this all the time. I’ve just been so lucky in the fact that I haven’t experienced it to this level before. And so yeah. I but then, you know, I’d get comments here and there about, you know, just different experiences that were really bad. Like, even when I moved to Copenhagen because I wanted to get out of all of this, but kept my registration, everything in Sweden.

But I just really wanted to leave. And not saying that Copenhagen is perfect because it really isn’t still. It’s a still very white demographic. And so you still massively stand out. But to my experience of living there for 2 years, I didn’t experience anything to that level.

So I was then consulting for an accelerator and NVC fund in the south of Sweden. And I would take the train to Sweden. It’s like an hour and a bit on the train. And obviously, I’d get put in 1st class part of the train because I was there for work. And in the Copenhagen side, they’d be like, hey, how are you doing today?

Like, you know, check your ticket kind of thing. On the Swedish side, more often than not, I would get the question first off question of, you know, you’re in 1st class. Right? Would you like to check my ticket before you assume I’m not meant to be here? So it was those type of experiences that, honestly, I just end up quitting my job because I’m like, I’m not gonna expose myself to this every week.

Yeah. And, you know, in my head, I’m like, maybe I can try and put it down to the fact that I look younger than I am, and I’m a small girl. Like, maybe that’s why, which should not be okay in any way anyway. But, you know, there was once where there was a girl in a school uniform sitting behind me that he didn’t ask that question to. So it just showed.

But she was white. Right? So what else is the difference here? And so for me, that was a really hard thing to process. And I started, you know, obviously trying to find a therapist in Sweden to try and help me process this racism that I was getting because, to be honest, I was dressing up well just to go to the supermarket around the corner, so I didn’t get something said to me.

To living your life to that degree on a daily basis is just not okay, to me at least. Like, it wasn’t something I was willing to accept. And so, yeah, I obviously tried to find a therapist. I went to an American therapist specifically because I thought she’d understand racism better. I ended up paying her for an hour to educate her about racism.

Which was fun. I was like, my friends can do this, and I don’t have to pay for this. So it was really frustrating. And, you know, I’d had other circumstances go with go with an Asian mom that doesn’t talk about feelings? I’m just gonna get hit across the head.

Like, you don’t get it. And so, yeah, It was just those kind of frustrating experiences that I guess led me to build what I’m building. You know, I love that you’ve gone into that level of detail because especially as I said in the beginning, you know, the passion and determination that you have, it really goes hand in hand for why you are such a good ambassador for what you are doing here. As mentioned, you worked in venture capital. You did start up advisory.

I believe you still do some start up advisory now. I try and do a lot less of it now just because, yeah, obviously, being a founder. Yeah. One of probably my biggest learnings from a lot of the guests that I’ve had on the show is that on this pursuit of going down this more unconventional

route and the reason I use the word unconventional is it’s normally unconventional to their community or society that they’ve grown up in. Whether it’s their friends or the family or the people that they take most of their guidance or influence from.

And usually what happens here is there’s 2 conflicts that are happening at the same time and it’s something that everyone can relate to. There’s the internal conflict where you’ve based on your life experiences and the values that you hold, you have this internal dialogue that’s telling you of what it is for you to be genuine to yourself and chasing your purpose and being true to what you want to do and achieve. And then there’s the external conflict where you have the expectation of the society that you’ve grown up in and the people around you and the way they see you. And you know, often a lot of the literature talks about how we succumb to the expectation of the family or friends around us. Because I think Nir Eyal talks about this in In distractable where he says that, you know, we are designed mentally and physically to avoid psychological unsafety.

And so what that will mean is we don’t like the discomfort of mainly two things, being seen as different or being seen as an outsider. And so we will do what we can in order to avoid that. That’s the external pressure where in your case, clearly at one point or you tell me, did the internal dialogue overtake that external pressure or expectation that you’re feeling that then told you, you know, was there a day where you said, now I have to go down this path? I think for me is that and this is my own thing, but I always felt like an outsider. Like, I always felt like I was so different that, yeah, I never had the kind of same family, set up as a lot of people, at least the ones that I was around.

Right? And obviously didn’t look like a lot of my kind of friends, especially in the Nordics. Right? And so I think for me, it wasn’t, yeah, not feeling like an outsider because I’m like, oh, well, yeah, I’m already used to this. So it is what it is.

I think for me, it was that I personally had a lot of, like, imposter syndrome. Mhmm. I think also being and this is I think a lot of, ethnic women, I would say, would probably understand this quite heavily, but is that in Asian societies, the boy is also very, very favored. Right? And so my brother, who was, you know, a bit older than me, was always smarter than me.

He was always, you know, better in every regard. And so I was always told that, yeah, I wasn’t as smart. And as long as you’re pretty, then that’s fine because you can just marry someone who’s rich and you don’t need a career or any of that. So I was I was put down a lot. And so for me, I think even on looks.

Right? So even growing up, like, my mom would tell me that, you know, I was fat and that I needed put makeup on from, like, a very young age. And so I have just very bad self esteem. And so I think for me, like, I had to overcome a lot of that. And so, yeah, being kind of told you’re stupid or ignorant or all of this quite often growing up meant that I think I had a lot of imposter syndrome.

And also being not just a woman of color in VC and start up mentoring and all of that, but also the fact that I didn’t study business. I didn’t go to a consulting firm. I didn’t go to investment banking, which is traditionally where they pick people from. And so I learned so much on the job, and I learned so much by reading and by educating myself. And so I think there was such a big part of me that had such an imposter syndrome and still does to some degree, for sure.

Right? And I think I judge myself a lot harsher than other people do. But again, from, you know, the scale of what it was, I feel like I’ve done a lot a lot to work on this. But I think the reason why I hadn’t started anything until I started Tell To Thrive was because I didn’t feel like I was good enough. And I felt like I needed to still learn, and I needed to still get that that education.

I still needed to get that experience. And, like, how can you start this without having that behind you? You know? And I so I think it got to the point of me experiencing all these, to be honest, pretty awful situations. And then talking to a lot of friends that I’ve experienced really similar things.

But then also looking in the market and trying to seek help for this, and I couldn’t find it. And so for me, I was like, this just needs to be a product in the market. For me, I think everything I’ve done, everything I’ve studied has been to impact people in a positive way. And so for me, it was just, like, more than, oh, I wanna do a start up. It was, I need to do this.

And I think for me, that’s what put my imposter syndrome and everything to the back because it was just yeah. This is bigger than me. Hey. I just need one minute of your time before we get back to the episode, episode and I promise I’ll make it worth it. You’ll have heard me mention on recent episodes that there are some big projects that I’ve got going on in the background.

And I’ve got a team who are currently working on building a platform called lifetimes. Imagine a place where you can see your family tree, but also each connection’s personal profile containing their most significant life events, cherished moments, or any messages that they want to share with the generations to come. So with lifetimes, each member gets their own profile where you can upload photos, videos, and even audio messages, so that you can create a digital archive of what you consider the most important moments and memories from your life that you want to share with the ones that matter the most. So whether it’s your first day at school or buying your first car, or a video of your graduation or wedding day, or maybe a secret recipe that you wanna maintain for the generations to come. It is totally up to you what you think are the moments that you want to preserve and be remembered for.

And what’s more, I’ve created a list of my top podcast style questions that you can ask family members, which can help you to capture the key moments from their life told by them. If you’d like to be among the first to have access, you can join the wait list of early birds and secure your spot by leaving your email at lifetimesapp.com. That’s l I f e timesapp.com so that you can get your completely free access as soon as it’s launched. To make this easier for you, I’ve left the link in the description wherever you’re listening to this podcast right now. Thank you.

That leads perfectly on to tell me what is Thala Thrive? Yeah. So Thala means to speak in Swedish, actually. It’s where I experienced a lot of the problems, but also means star in Tagalog in the Philippines. And, Thrive, we’re trying to push a movement around Thrive and not just survive.

So, basically, it is a platform, online to match you with therapists and coaches who understand your culture, language, or religion. So for culturally competent care. Because currently right now and especially in Europe, there really isn’t a platform to match you on these basis. So there are so many generalist mental health platforms out there. There’s some that focus on females, on the queer community, on social isolation or the Italian market.

There’s black minds matter in the UK, which is amazing, but quite a small organisation And it focuses on, obviously, black people and supporting them, matching them with black therapists. And there’s Arab therapy in the UAE. But there really isn’t anything that kind of matches based on culture, language, or religion. And so, yeah, that’s what we wanna really support. We’re gonna look in doing, slowly, like online cognitive behavioral therapy programmes, but in the areas of the things that we face.

So is that racism, culture identity issues, generational trauma, interracial couples, colorism? Colorism is so big and so nuanced, and it’s just not, educated around enough. And that is some of that kind of trauma that we need to start cutting. And we just need to start, not looking at

people, I guess, as less than because they’re of darker skin. When I first heard about it, I remember we met probably a couple of months ago now, and you were telling me about it.

And I obviously told you about the show and the other things I’m working on. And the reason that I think there’s such a such a strong value in this, apart from what you’ve already said, is it really helps people to understand this point of cultural context and the role that it plays in the way that we communicate. You know, the way that we even identify how we should feel about emotions. So, you know, for example in certain cultures, the feeling of pride is celebrated. In other cultures, the feeling of pride is seen as something that’s either distracting you from how you should feel or it’s not something that you would boast about, right?

In another way, when people talk about what the importance of yourself, it would be that, you know, as long as I’m fit, healthy, and happy, etcetera, it it’s all from the I and that’s how it should be. Whereas in other cultures, I is very much still your family or community that was included. So taking into these things, you’re right, you know, I think when people start to understand that there are cultural influences that impact the individual, then that conversation can start to be had about, like you say, a therapist being able to just ask the right questions by knowing that context. So, you know, I love what you’re doing and what this reminded me of when I was reading up until I Thrive. So I also lived in, Shanghai for a couple of years.

And one of the projects that I had to work on was these cross cultural differences. I think that’s probably where my interest in this whole thing originated from. Because before that I was in London. London’s quite diverse. It’s never a question that I was really faced with having to ask or it’s just my own ignorance.

But you know, I I covered a number of projects including the generational spending habits and how they’ve changed. So consumerism, the role of influences, all that. But one of the other key points in this was how mental health is perceived. And I’ve just I managed to dig out what the thing I found. And just to preface this with something, this is a study that was done in 2016 and I report I reported on it.

I wasn’t a journalist. I spoke about it in 2018. So obviously now we’re in 2024. It’s 6 years on, a lot has changed positively, but this still highlighted kind of what the or what really stuck out to me at the time. So what it said is that apparently half of the people in the US that are living with mental health issues have never sought any help for it.

And it said that while access to resources and mistrust of the healthcare system among the minority group are issues that explain part of that. Misconceptions about mental health and taboos also had a role in hindering that. Then it says in China and this was reported by the, the Center of Mental Health. They said that for patients with lifetime mental health disorders, roughly 15% of them ended up seeking help. So in the US it was 50 and that’s already, you know, some people might be like, wow that’s so low.

15% and but again back in 2016. And then the study goes on to say that the Chinese consensus towards the idea of mental health was one of people expressing weird behavior or harmful behavior. And they often viewed people like this as either sensitive, dramatic, or weak. Again, things have drastically moved along since then, but again, you know, through what we’re speaking about there’s still a lot that goes on. But looking at this, why do you think that this stigma does stand so strong in, you know, certain cultures?

Yeah. Let’s answer that first and then we’ll go on to next bit. I think stigma is one thing. Right? I think another thing is if you don’t grow up knowing something, you don’t know how to address it.

You don’t know how to seek help. Right? So if we didn’t grow up talking about mental health, how

do you even know where to start? So I think that’s a big issue as well. Of course, there’s a stigma because our parents generally didn’t or in certain cultures, especially, you know, black men or, Arabic men are told to be tough and provide us and not talk about mental health.

Of course, there’s still that. Obviously, we’re working on breaking that down. And us as taller Thrive are gonna be doing really cool things called humans of New York, style with, like, humans of taller thrive and really highlighting with the cool people of color and them talking about their mental health. So kind of try and bring down that, of course. But I think a big part of it is just understanding what support is there out there for you.

And talking therapy, the traditional kind of talking therapy of how do you feel about that type of thing is not the only way. And so I think that we need to also educate a lot of people and, you know, I didn’t I I studied psychology at uni. There’s so many forms of therapy that I didn’t know about until I started researching them. So we have therapists on our platform that work with sound therapy, somatic therapy, which is, you know, combining your mind and your body. I love that personally, inner child healing, internal family systems.

And then there’s obviously life coaching, executive coaching. So I think that one learning about the different types, we’re also going to have these education pieces in terms of, like, what are cultural identity issues? What are what is generational trauma? How does that present? Because for some people, it presents really strongly.

And others, it’s minor things that you don’t even realize is generational trauma. So I think education is a big part of it as well. And I think it’s a big thing of, like, guilt. Right? Mhmm.

So I think a lot of us, especially with immigrant parents, we have a lot of guilt as to, oh, but, you know, they’ve provided a better life for us, that we shouldn’t need this, we shouldn’t seek this out, or there’s a stigma around it from them, not from us. But the we shouldn’t be doing this or we shouldn’t need to. And so I think that guilt, we just really need to get rid of. Like, that needs to just go now. We just need to start doing things that better ourselves.

Yeah. You’re completely right. I mean, one of the things I forgot to mention, but you’ve basically touched on is that, you know, the things that were cited as having the most impact was family shame. Yeah. You know, there were other factors around how it impacts our view of our social dominance.

But especially when it came to the eastern culture, you know, the perceived norms of what is considered normal and familial shame were too that completely dominated it. Off the top of that, the stage that you’re at now with where you’ve got to, what is it that makes Thrive capable of delivering on ultimately what is a big change that needs to happen. And also, like you’ve said, you know, there are other types of innovations in therapy that have happened, but the cultural awareness is not something that’s been factored in. Why are you set up to be able to make this possible? Yeah.

So I think one is kind of we’ve done so much research into this space. Right? I’ve personally interviewed about a 150 therapists and coaches now. Everyone from such different varied backgrounds and religious beliefs and yeah. And just really understanding who comes to you, why do they come to you.

But also kind of, you know, researching and interviewing our target market. I think there’s a few factors to really understand here. So we’re targeting people that are living where they are a minority. Right? So, obviously, if, you know, I was living in Malaysia, I wouldn’t be a minority.

Right? If someone was Chinese and living back in China, if that was their heritage, they wouldn’t

be a minority there. So where, you know, for example, Tartan people in in Europe or, the Western world, I would say. I don’t love that term. But them with a cultural background that is different.

Right? And so when you when you kind of understand maybe why haven’t they seek therapy? One is, yeah, they don’t understand how to, who to go to. They then search online. 90% of the therapists or more are white therapists or coaches.

And they’re like, well, they’re just not gonna understand me. So no. Or that is actually quite a reason as to why they don’t wanna seek out, say, if they’re Indian heritage and they’re based in London and they’re looking for an Indian therapist, they’re actually a little bit scared that they’re gonna tell their families. And so it’s gonna the word’s gonna get back. Right?

That’s kind of what they’re scared about to some degree. And so obviously, having a platform that’s online that obviously is incredibly secure. We take data privacy so seriously. But also having our therapists and coaches on that that you could be talking to someone in Australia, in Sweden, or wherever. And, like, one is just that they’re probably not gonna know you badly because they’re so far removed, but also such strict guidelines in terms of they cannot share this.

So that kind of security around that is one thing and getting them access to help. The other thing is that I found that when we’ve done a lot of research is that a lot of, people of ethnic backgrounds tend to try a therapist in the Western world or a white therapist and they go, this doesn’t work. I need someone Yeah. In India. So then they go and contact someone in India.

And that person doesn’t understand the struggles that you go through living in the Western world. Right? And so they don’t understand the racism that you’ll probably face, the culture identity issues that we’ll probably face, and all these other things. Of course, some of this still happens where, you know, back in India or China or whatever. Colorism is a very big thing in China and India and within those societies.

But there’s so much that we face that they just not could understand of living in the Western world. And that’s why our therapists and coaches are based in the Western world. I think there’s also something to be said about the communication styles, which is, you know, one of the most interesting books I’ve probably ever read is called The Culture Map by Erin Meyer. And if you’re familiar with high context and low context language, so a high context language is something where a lot of things are inferred. The Japanese even have a term for it.

It translates as reading the air. I don’t know, can’t remember what the term is. In high context cultures, a lot of what you say is perceived in what you’ve said because we have a mutual understanding or background or something that connects us. Low context cultures, or low context languages are ones where the culture is very direct. So I have to kind of spell out what I mean.

You know, even when you look at relationships that can be a thing of when it’s a high context language versus a low context language there’s a need to understand that. So it applies in relationships and especially in the work environment. So like a manager who is very direct and says it how it is. I, looking at my career, I’d probably think that, oh, that is the way that a management style should be. But if you speak to someone that’s speaking in a high context language, they would see that low context approach as either very condescending or stating the obvious or why are you speaking to me like a child, right?

Having read that and then hearing what you’ve said, I can see how important that would also be in the world of therapy and cultural awareness where it’s kind of you may be faced with a patient Yeah. Who may speak in a very high context language. And so it’s not the case that they’re trying to be secretive or that they’re trying to avoid answering the question. But if you have a, you know,

very low context language therapist who’s being very direct, it could almost have the reverse effect on the patient. So, you know, it’s one of the areas that I find super fascinating and the fact that Tala Thrive is doing what it can to find all the ways to make this easier for people is yeah.

It’s an amazing thing. I think that what you just touched on there is, you know, I think when you look at statistics right now globally, right, 50% of people drop off between the, within the first three sessions of a therapist session. Right? And so why is that drop off so high? 1 in 2 will drop off within the first three sessions.

And so when you look at that and, you know, I’ve done a lot of research to try and really try and understand this. And I think a lot of the issues is obviously they don’t understand your situation. Of course, that makes sense. Right? When you ask most females, would you prefer to see a male or female therapist?

Majority of them will say females. When you ask them why, they’re like, well, they understand my situation, and they understand what I go through as a woman. Right? And so, obviously, it’s the same thing here, but for cultural differences for us. But also understanding what you wanna get out of your session, I think is really important.

And so we actually ask this question to our clients is that, you know, you can kind of pick on a sliding scale of what you want out of your therapy session or what you want from your therapist or coach. And it’s, you know, scales from like directive to explorative or, you know, yeah. Like, this kind of we have several different scales on this. But basically, it’s like listener versus talker, things like that. And so for me, for example, I personally am, like, pretty, like, solution orientated person.

So I wanna, kind of, go into a session, and I want you to pick up and be like, okay, well, you probably are doing this because of what happened here. Or, you know, kind of give me some insight that I feel like maybe I’m not gonna pick up myself. Or I want you to kind of like give me things to work on afterwards and go, okay, well, if you wanna like improve your anxiety for this, then why don’t you do this, this, this? Give me, like, things that I feel like I’m actually gonna be able to do myself. Actionable.

Yeah. Actionable things. Right? That’s me. But I also have my partner and my friends that I can vent to.

Right? And that I don’t have to pay for that. They could just listen to it. Whereas a lot of people don’t have that in their lives. And so or maybe they don’t even want that.

So when they go to a session and they just want to vent and they just want to be heard They just wanna be heard. That is totally valid as well. But we’re wanting different things. Mhmm. So and therapists and coaches can do both.

That’s what they’re equipped to do, but they need to understand what you want from the session. So I think that’s really important for us is for that therapist and coach to be able to see what do you want out of this session. And then, obviously, that can be a quick conversation at the start of the session and start working together. And then as you go on, like, keep checking in, being like, do you still want this? Do you wanna just, like, vent more now?

Do you want to what do you want out of it? And I think that’s really, really important is to really find out what works for you. Right? Instead, you know, date, like, take date therapists and coaches. Right?

Like, obviously, not romantically, but, you know, just see what works for you. The first one may not work. Right? We’ve just interviewed a football player, and he mentioned that he saw 15 to 20

therapists before he found his therapist. Obviously, we’re hoping that our platform will you know, even if you don’t like the first one, that maybe it’ll be the second one or so.

So rather than having to go through 15, we kinda limit it where you’re matched based on as much as we can possibly match you on, to have a potentially better outcome. But, yeah, I think it’s just keep trying different ones and don’t just go, okay. This one didn’t work for me. It’s not your fault. I think a lot of us blame ourselves.

I’ve done that and gone, oh, well, this isn’t for me. This just doesn’t work for me. And it’s because, you know, I grew up in this family where we never talked about it. Oh, but then it just doesn’t work. It’s just it just unfortunately takes us more work and more learning.

I also have one question around something that you touched on and we covered earlier. So, you know, mental health is something that some people find hard to identify with, because a lot of the time these issues are psychological. But looking at cultures, sometimes they will not even be made aware of or accepted until they become something physical, you know, in the form of like migraines Yeah. Or outbursts in a certain way. For someone who may be feeling like they are going through something that they don’t understand and are wondering whether it is something that they should look into.

What advice would you give to them about, you know, almost not waiting on it any longer to see if it does become something physical where it could be something psychological? That’s such a big thing. And hence why I think I personally love somatic therapy. Just, again, body and mind working on both, releasing trauma from your body. Because I think no matter who you are, a lot of people do have trauma to some degree.

So my obviously advocate for mental health and therapy and coaching, but just reach out and try. Right? And again, I I’m very understanding of the fact that it’s not accessible for everyone. Okay? So we are at a as an accessible price point, I think, as possible.

So in the UK, we’re currently at £79 for a 45 minute session with a therapist, which is, to be honest, on the kind of lower scale in terms of therapy. But in we’re working with different charities to start being able to kind of give out sessions pro bono to people that really can’t afford it but need it. So we’re working as much as we can on that. But I do think that if you can afford it, even just one session, is just try it and see. Right?

Or, you know, with our platform, we’re gonna be releasing these online CBT programs. And they’re gonna be, you know, just on the platform or, like, very kind of small monthly subscription to kind of check-in on your mental health, educate yourself around it. Just to learn, I think, is that will be, yeah, obviously, way more accessible. So my thing is just I mean, that’s my also personal thing is that, like, I guess I’m quite proactive in things is that if I’m not feeling well physically, mentally, I’ll try so many different things. Right?

So even for stress now, it’s like I get acupuncture for stress or I go to sound baths or, yeah, obviously go to the gym and things like that. So, meditation, yoga. So I try a lot of different things to see what works for me because it’s different for everyone. I love that. And, you know, the way that I can relate to it and it’s something that, again, I think only people really close to me know about, but it ties into this so well is the points in my life where I have felt the closest to feeling the most lost or the most anxious.

And now I understand more that these are words that are associated with, like, mental health symptoms is the times where I felt that I had no idea what direction I was going in and where to turn. Mhmm. And, there’s this study done on rats treading water, and it I can’t remember where I read it from, but it talks about learned helplessness. Yeah. A group of rats were put into water

and they treaded water to see how long they would tread water for before giving up.

Right? On average, 30 minutes. A second group of rats were put in, but the difference this time was after 28 minutes they were taken out of the water. So they’re ultimately saved from drowning. By the way, no rats were actually harmed in the process of the study.

Once they were taken out, so they had the experience of being saved, they were then put back in later. They then tread for 12 hours. Wow. Once they had the experience of being saved from a certain moment, they now had more faith that could go on. And, you know, in the way that I relate it to this is that it’s not about pushing it to the point where, okay, now I have mental health issues, now I need to seek help.

But as soon as people have that exposure to there is a way to get help for whatever I’m going through right now, and again, you know, relating to my own situation, I have no reference point to look at of where I can seek help for this. And I think it’s the point at which people then give up, I. E. That 30 minute mark for the rats, is where we have ended up facing a lot of issues in society. Again, going back to the point of what I think you’re doing is basically giving not to call us a population of rats, but giving us that 28 minute mark where there is that that point that we could be saved before it’s becomes too much of an issue.

Yeah. And I think it’s just pro being proactive and preventative rather than kind of dealing with the issues later. Right? Or passing it on to the next generation. I think a big thing that we don’t really maybe talk about enough is that I think we have this expectation that we put on our friends and or our partners, or family.

But anyone around you is this thing of, oh, I’ll just talk to you about it and you’ll make it better or you’ll be able to say what I need. None of us are equipped for this. Right? Unless you’re literally dating a psychologist. Yeah.

We’re not equipped for this in any way. And so that you’re expecting your partner or your friend or whatever to elicit this response that is exactly what you need it to be. That’s not gonna happen. And it’s not on their fault at all. Right?

But then it just kind of becomes this cycle where maybe you get annoyed or, you’re feeling even more lost. But you can’t put that expectation on them. Everyone needs an outside perspective. And so I think for me is that kind of seeking that therapist or a coach where you feel like I’m actually doing quite fine. I don’t feel like, you know, I’m super stressed or I don’t have that much trauma.

You’ve already dealt with that. Go and see a coach because there’s so many things that a coach can help you with and kind of push you forward and for us, like, help you thrive. Right? So, yeah, I think it just everyone needs an outside perspective. They need accountability.

Right? And then you’re not kind of blaming your partner for, like, I don’t know, whatever it is, Ryan, kind of going, oh, well, we just sat down on the couch this weekend instead of, like, me doing this work or whatever it was to kind of help me thrive or whatever it is. So I think having that external kind of accountability partner or someone that’s kinda just focused on you and has the knowledge and training to be able to support you in the right way is just so important. Thank you. I hope I’ve done justice to, you know, kind of explaining why what you’re working on is Yeah.

So, so important and really give the context of why, you know, ultimately, you are in such a good position of the experience you’ve gone through been through and the drive that you have to make this happen. You know, if people do have any other questions that I didn’t manage to cover or just wanna reach out to you to find out more about what you’re working on, what is the best way?

Yeah. Please do. We’re literally just launched and we’re we have, like, a long wait list, but we are so keen to help as many people as we can.

So, if you’re, individual looking to seek out therapy or coaching, please, you know, just get on our website, talathrive.com, and we can sign up to our wait list, our newsletter, get information as to we’re gonna start doing a lot more events in person. Obviously, we’re also on Instagram, LinkedIn. You can also just reach out to me personally. Really happy to connect with anyone. But also if you’re a corporate and you’re looking for employee benefits.

Because a lot of corporates currently do tend to have a pocket for wellness budget for their female employees and sometimes for their queer community. But they actually don’t tend to have a budget for people with different ethnic backgrounds. Mhmm. And this is such an area of need. So, yeah, I do think that, you know, we’re starting to work with some corporates coming up.

And so that’s an absolute area where we could feel like we can actually, yeah, help a lot as well. So Yeah. And of course, if therapists and coaches are interested to working with us, we have some already some amazing therapists and coaches but we’re, of course, always looking for more as we scale. So, do get in touch. Thank you, Sonia.

And I, yeah, look forward to seeing how this grows. Thank you. Just before we do finish, I have a bonus question I ask every guest. Go for it. And that is, if you had the opportunity to leave one message for the future generation, what would that message be?

Oh. I love that kids are constantly curious. And I think we lose that as adults. We accept things for the way it is. And so I want to make sure that everyone is questioning why we do things the certain way and not just going with it because that’s the way we’ve always done it.

So for example, I went to do an exchange in Hong Kong during university. No one from my department, or full education degree had ever gone on exchange anywhere in the world. Mhmm. But I was determined because I love Hong Kong and I really wanted to live there. And so I sat with my dean, like, every, you know, week for several hours for months being able to set this up.

And, you know, I end up going there. And now they’ve done, like, a proper exchange program to the university that I was in in Hong Kong because of it. So that’s just one example. I think there’s so many other things that we can do that everyone can make a difference if we just start to question, but why do we do that? Or why is this normal?

Or even kids even are like question, why do we eat meat? Like, why do we kill animals for meat? Like, you know, that’s one of the areas. But again, there’s so many things we just need to keep questioning. Because if we don’t question, we don’t change anything.

Thank you. Thanks. That was really good. That’s slow. And I don’t know if you don’t need to Good. And then Okay. Cool. It’s doing really well. That was really Yeah. That was really cool.
So impactful. It’s like, oh, you said something. She Yeah. That was really cool. So impactful.
It was like, oh, you said something. She said something. It was like nothing Yeah. Awkward.